VR Health Insider Podcast – Episode 4: Cix Liv

Welcome to a brand new episode of the VR Health Insider Podcast!

Be a part of us as we welcome Cix Liv of LIV, YUR and REK. He’s a digital health pioneer utilizing XR applied sciences to enhance the world of sports activities and health.

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Episode 4 – Cix Liv

Preston Lewis: [00:00:00] Welcome to the VR Health Insiders podcast, for the creators who’re constructing the way forward for the VR and AR sports activities and health industries that may revolutionize the way in which the world will play sports activities, work out and get match together with your hosts. Preston Lewis and Ryan DeLuca, the founders of Black Field vr, who’re constructing the world’s first full health VR gymnasium and convey many years of expertise from creating a few of the largest health expertise corporations on the planet.

They’re bringing collectively one of the best and brightest minds that can assist you and your organization succeed within the VR health revolution.

Alright. Welcome to the VR Health Insider podcast. We’ve a VR, AR, XR guru and pioneer right here with us immediately, Cix Liv. Cix, thanks for being right here.

Cix Liv: Thanks. Thanks a lot.

Preston Lewis: So why don’t we begin off, with you simply giving our viewers a fast intro into who you’re and your background.

Cix Liv: The story of San Francisco, why I got here up right here is definitely a humorous one. I’ll inform it actual shortly. Once I initially got here to the West coast, I used to be initially from the Midwest. I used to be from Minnesota, [00:01:00] Colorado, Minnesota.

And what introduced me to the West Coast is I used to be promoting laptop {hardware}, and I saved transport it again to a spot referred to as Metropolis of Trade. I heard that title and I used to be, like, “wow.” You recognize, like, Metropolis of Trade, proper? I used to be simply so fucking bored with how chilly the Midwest was, and I might at all times joke with my mates that sometime I’m gonna get in a automotive, I’m gonna drive to the West Coast and also you’re by no means gonna see my ass once more. And I did that. I did that in the future, and I confirmed up in Metropolis of Trade, which is exterior of Los Angeles, and it’s simply, the warehouses, proper?

Yeah, I confirmed up there and I used to be like residing in a fucking warehouse. Positively not like a heat starting to California. However really that’s after I began calling myself Cix. So, it’s not my delivery title. My delivery title is completely different. I believe lots of people, once they make enormous life selections, they often need to change themselves and who they have been and every part. And Cix was my on-line [00:02:00] id.

However yeah, a brief story about why I got here as much as San Francisco is I used to be working in expertise, in a rudimentary sense. I didn’t perceive all of the tech lingo and all this VC nonsense that we now have up right here. However I used to be in California on the time and I heard about this app referred to as Yo. And it was a push notification app, and all of the app did was whenever you press your pal’s title and it will do a push notification and mentioned, “yo”. And that raised hundreds of thousands of {dollars}. And I used to be like, “I don’t know what the fuck they’re smoking in San Francisco.”

Preston Lewis: Like a Silicon Valley, a Silicon Valley episode.

Cix Liv: They’re out of their fucking minds. Yeah, in order that’s why got here as much as San Francisco, and now I’ve been caught right here for eight years. However, that’s the story of how I made up right here “I used to be like, wow, these guys are nuts.” And I need be a part of that as a result of…

Ryan DeLuca: That’s proper. That’s superior.

Preston Lewis: I like it was like Metropolis of Trade. I may simply think about what you have been like envisioning was similar to [00:03:00] this Utopia of companies and stuff after which simply to indicate up at a warehouse is hilarious.

Cix Liv: Skyrises and I confirmed up and it’s actually simply warehouses. It’s referred to as Metropolis of Trade, it’s the Industrial District. So positively not a rosy entrance to California, let’s put it that approach.

Preston Lewis: Sounds such as you’ve had some actually experiences in California, with the Yo app, and the street journey, and leaving all your folks behind and transferring to the Metropolis of Trade. However, inform our viewers how you bought all for VR. Uh, why’d you get all for it? What first drew you to it?

Cix Liv: Yeah, so the primary jobs I had in San Francisco have been IT jobs. So, I used to be mainly fixing shit for folks; whether or not it was corporations or excessive web price folks. I mounted one of many co-founders of Google’s, like private Wi-Fi.

I arrange Justin Kahn’s Wi-Fi. He most likely doesn’t know that I used to be that Taskrabbit dude organising his fucking Wi-Fi, however , sometime, [00:04:00] sometime I’ll inform that story.

Ryan DeLuca: Nonetheless have his password?

Cix Liv: Humble first, uh, beginnings right here. So, however my background was very completely different than a whole lot of tech folks in San Francisco. Loads of tech folks in San Francisco have been engaged on cellular functions, and SaaS merchandise and issues like that. They have been very deep on that finish. I used to be working in IT stuff my complete life, both on the {hardware} facet, or simply fixing stuff on a regular basis.

So I had that distinctive perspective. I bought into VR, as a result of I used to be working as an IT man and I bought entry to the DK2. So I wasn’t OG sufficient to say DK1. Sadly, I wasn’t that early into VR. So I bought the DK2 and I used to be attempting it out and I used to be like, “that is actually fucking cool”, nevertheless it wasn’t fairly sufficient to get me to commit my life to it.

I attempted a few of the experiences the place I used to be sitting down utilizing a controller and I used to be transferring my head round. I used to be like, “yeah, that is fairly cool.” The racing stuff, I actually bought into. However then I bought entry to the Vive Pre, , the dev equipment earlier than the VIVE got here out. I bought the Vive [00:05:00] Pre and I had an early construct of a Area Pirate Coach, and I used to be taking part in it in the lounge.

So after I moved to San Francisco, I used to be residing with fifty folks on this co-living, type of hippie-ish factor the place like folks would come collectively to attempt to survive the outrageous prices of residing in San Francisco. They’d cook dinner one another meals and stuff. So I lived with fifty fucking folks after I got here to San Francisco.

Ryan DeLuca: And it wasn’t a bunch of homeless tents. It was really a spot

Cix Liv: Positively very humble beginnings after I got here to San Francisco. However I had the Vive Pre and I set it up in the lounge there, and I performed Area Pirate Coach. And I bear in mind a second the place I used to be capturing out the drones. And a drone shot at me, and the laser was coming in the direction of me, and each single second in my gaming life previous to this… I’ve been obsessive about video video games my complete life. I like to inform those who video video games raised me greater than my dad and mom did. Which, I don’t know in the event that they’re gonna respect me saying that publicly, however Zelda raised me greater than my dad. [00:06:00] We’re not gonna get too far into that.

However, I had this second. The laser’s coming in the direction of me, and each single a part of my gamer mind is pondering, press down on the thumbs stick and that is the way you’re gonna dodge it. However then I used to be like, wait a second, my physique is the controller. And I did one in every of these Matrix strikes, I went like again like this and the laser went over me, and I got here again and it was like, fuck.

That’s the way forward for gaming. I’m the controller now. Holy shit, ? And it was just like the convergence of every part that I believed in as a human being, about personifying your personal new id, about physicality and about video video games all coming collectively.

That excellent connection of who I used to be. And that’s what bought me into the area.

Ryan DeLuca: I believe all of us have that second, proper in VR, in fact everybody does like Richie’s Plank Expertise and “oh, I really really feel like I used to be falling.”

And like, whenever you actually [00:07:00] notice that you simply really really feel such as you’re there. And I believe it makes complete sense that video video games at all times have been a controller or keypad the place you’re pondering that you’re really in that world and pretending that you simply’re that character.

You’re clearly absolutely faraway from it on a flat display screen. And it’s the dream that we at all times needed. We at all times pretended we have been that factor after which abruptly VR , now you’re in there, such as you mentioned. Like the primary time you even have to maneuver and also you don’t wanna transfer, since you’re not likely positive the place you’re at in actual area, however then when you do it, it’s fairly magical.

Preston Lewis: Area Pirate coach was superb for its time. It was one of many earlier titles and I nonetheless assume they’ve a few of the greatest graphics and mechanics in there.

Cix Liv: Yeah, it was unbelievable. I believe the primary sport that may get the crown for the primary health sport in VR, I might say might be Audio Protect.

Audio Protect was one thing that our CTO at Liv completely beloved. It wasn’t seen as like a really apparent use case to start with of digital actuality.

You’re sporting this factor in your face, why do you wanna run round, too? Like, even Carmack, even John Carmack, the CTO of Oculus on the time, he wasn’t satisfied in any respect on [00:08:00] energetic motion in VR. He’s like, “why the fuck would I placed on a headset and run round”, ?

Ryan DeLuca: Persons are gonna wanna sit down. And even the primary expertise with the Oculus, it was like an Xbox controller and it was the 2 cameras in entrance, for those who solely had two. You couldn’t even transfer all the way in which, uh, in a circle. And so it did appear to make sense. And we now have the identical story, like, we heard him say that.

After which now in fact he’s speaking about exercising in VR on a regular basis with Beat Saber.

Cix Liv: The final time I see him, he’s bought the forearms and every part’s, like, these are Beat Saber arms, ?

Preston Lewis: “These are Beat Saber arms”, that’s superior.

Ryan DeLuca: In order that then led you into beginning corporations within the XR area. First one being Liv. You wanna inform us just a little bit about co-founding that and the way that went and what you discovered from that?

Cix Liv: You recognize, I used to be tremendous all for VR, after which there was this co-working area in San Francisco referred to as Add, which it was a fantastic place for folks to return collectively.

I do know there’s been controversy about Add, however I had a whole lot of optimistic experiences there. [00:09:00] Particularly with some members of the group. The man who authorized me to be a part of this co-living area was a man named Oz. Ozran all of the blended actuality stuff on the location.

And after I met Oz, he had this inexperienced display screen room and he was doing blended actuality the place he was placing folks within the sport and displaying all people exterior of VR what it was prefer to be in VR. And after I noticed him doing that, it answered one of many greatest elementary issues that we had in our area, which was , “what the fuck are you doing?” Proper? When you see somebody in a headset and so they’re sitting down and so they’re similar to, going like this, like the primary inclination lots of people had is “are they watching porn?” Like, what the fuck are they doing in that headset? You recognize? Um…

Ryan DeLuca: And it turned out fifty p.c of the time, that was true.

Cix Liv: On your VR. I might say that was most likely true. Let’s be trustworthy. However , once we moved to love full physique monitoring, for those who have been to take a look at somebody taking part in Beat Saber and never have any context in any respect, proper?

You’d be like, “what?” Like, “is that this individual tripping balls or [00:10:00] one thing?” ” What the hell are they doing?” However then whenever you took the digital world and also you, and also you confirmed folks the context of what was occurring, it went from dorky to chill.

And I’m a powerful believer that expertise shifts occur whenever you make one thing dorky, cool. It’s so simple as that. And so, for those who take a look at the evolution of electrical vehicles, Elon Musk actually referred to as his line “attractive”. Proper? As a result of, electrical vehicles as much as that have been like sensible vehicles and stuff like that, the place all people thought electrical vehicles have been fucking dorky. Proper?

And so one of many large issues that I at all times take a look at on this area is, how will we make this cool? After which Zuckerberg is available in there and makes it probably the most dorky shit on the planet? Anyway. Little little bit of a tangent, however Liv was capable of talk one thing that was inherently dorky and make it cool. And in addition permit folks a window into VR, so you can see what the individual was doing in actual time.

And so, Ozwas doing this. I used to be like, “that is superb.” [00:11:00] After which how will we create a product out of this? And in order that turned the massive query. A few of the those who I used to dwell with on this fifty individual co-op had moved into their very own condominium. Their names have been AJ and Pierre.

In order that they have been my two mates. I like went to them and I mainly co-oped their front room into an enormous blended actuality inexperienced display screen. And I used to be sleeping on the sofa and like setting this up of their front room. And we simply bought obsessive about it. I like to think about it type of like, , as youngsters you’ll document your self in a cassette participant and fake you have been radio jockeys or one thing?

I really feel like we have been type of having that second the place we had this inexperienced display screen after which AJ went in there with a brilliant saiyan hat on, and there was this sport the place you can have mini weapons. It was referred to as Sirius Sam. And he had this video the place he would go in and he had mini weapons in his arm and he had a brilliant saiyan factor.

It was simply us doing ridiculous stuff. And AJ had [00:12:00] expertise within the startups, extra instantly and the best way to communicate to buyers and no matter. And we bought into Techstars from there. And, Liv is doing fairly effectively proper now. I believe they only raised eight and a half million, and that’s the story of Liv.

Ryan DeLuca: That’s so true what you’re saying although, it’s so obscure what individuals are doing contained in the headset. And for those who see it even on a flat display screen, it will probably even actually be tough. We wrestle with that a whole lot of Black Field. Like how do you present folks? We nonetheless do, how do you present folks what you’re doing?

And we create some completely different type of inexperienced display screen sort of environments, nevertheless it’s simply so tough and such an enormous downside that Liv with fixing, which continues to be an issue and other people nonetheless wrestle with that, however simply how nice it’s been to see what Liv has finished to, to assist with that.

Cix Liv: I want they might make like a one click on blended actuality accomplice with a digicam firm, and simply press the button and go for it. However, uh…

Ryan DeLuca: It’s coming, it’ll come out ultimately.

Preston Lewis: Yeah, to piggyback on that, one of many cool issues that we actually respect you doing all through your profession thus far has been taking this platform strategy to constructing your tasks and merchandise. And yeah, the entire business has massively [00:13:00] benefited from these efforts. I most likely enterprise to guess that Liv is possibly the primary piece of software program used for blended actuality movies. And I’d most likely say it’s most, if not all, of the viral VR movies have been most likely made with Liv software program as effectively.

Black Field VR, once we first used your software program, we noticed folks lastly perceive, like “oh, wait a minute, you’re in an area” and “oh, wait a minute, you’re interacting with a machine and also you’re doing health actions?” And so, truthfully enormous due to you and your group for doing that, as a result of I believe it’s been superior for the business.

Cix Liv: Yeah. The Beat Saber stuff was a loopy story.

We have been working with somebody who’s a hearth spinner, her title was Swan. So the story of the viral occasion with Beat Saber, I don’t know if I’ll ever have an occasion like that earlier than, like, some folks say “viral” once they have like 1,000,000 views or one thing. This shit hit a billion views, like globally throughout every part. There was one video on Fb that hit 200 million by itself. That degree of virality I’ve by no means seen earlier than, and it occurred to me. [00:14:00] We have been simply creating movies and it was normally simply me, or simply some folks I do know, and I positively amp it up, however, , males in video video games and stuff, nothing tremendous novel about that.

So I had a pal named Swan and he or she went in there and he or she was similar to recording movies of herself. And we weren’t even pondering a complete lot about it, we have been similar to recording these movies after which posted it to YouTube. The primary one she had the place she had like a Jedi outfit on, after which the video that went viral was the second that we posted on YouTube. And it began taking off just a little bit, however nothing like outrageous. I fell asleep, and I awoke and I appeared down my cellphone, it was like 300 notifications and I used to be like, “what the fuck is happening?” And I opened it up, it was like, you’re on Recreation Cease, and also you’re on the entrance of that and in all places.

They’d taken our fucking video, and we had a watermark on the underside proper, and so they had similar to, blurred it out. I might name that second the [00:15:00] client occasion of VR. Earlier than then we have been like early adopters that thought this geeky stuff was cool, however at that second it broke out of that restricted market that we had, as a result of movies can attain everybody. I’ll at all times keep in mind that second. It was positively a mix of a bunch of issues. And , the largest studying that I had from Liv, that I take to the following corporations after, which is necessary for this podcast, was that physicality was so important to speaking to folks why VR was fascinating. As a result of anytime that we had blended actuality or a video of somebody like sitting there doing one thing, nobody gave a shit. However whenever you had added physicality and other people have been like dancing and concerned within the content material, it will, it will carry out like 100 instances higher.

The best way that I like to consider that’s the distinction between a film and a play. So in a play, you’re not essentially seeing the facial actions of somebody. You’re type of like eliminated and farther [00:16:00] away. Um, so you need to be loud and expressive. And since our face is roofed and also you’re not like speaking, , the nuances of your face, you need to use physique language.

And it’s the identical factor that occurs in sports activities, proper? Like whenever you watch a sport, you’re not taking a look at their face, you’re taking a look at their physique, proper? And so the largest studying from Liv that bought me into understanding the significance of physicality past my very own ardour with it, was nobody gave a shit concerning the content material if folks weren’t energetic, they only didn’t care. They have been like, okay, somebody’s being dorky in a headset. No. You recognize, I don’t care.

Ryan DeLuca: It’s such a great level. Yeah. I imply, simply the way in which you place it, the physicality. And folks like to observe folks doing bodily actions, proper? And sports activities and health. And so it’s simply this excellent mixture of that Beat Saber video got here out. I believe all of us have been just a little bit shocked. “What is that this factor with, like, it’s one thing to do with lightsabers and music?” Yeah, it was simply all over the place. After which that’s once we had our non- early adopter or non- VR like skilled [00:17:00] mates asking us about it. Like, “oh, that’s like sport with the lightsabers”, ? And it’s like all people knew about it.

Cix Liv: Yeah.

Preston Lewis: I believe Beat Saber owes you some royalties.

Cix Liv: I used to be in there serving to them lots with advertising and marketing within the early days. I believe that the success of Beat Saber, was not essentially simply Beat Saber itself. It launched with only some songs, six to seven songs. It was the content material that made it fascinating, after which there was a really giant modding group that got here out of it of about 4 hundred thousand folks. And that modding group made it, in order that they mainly took the bottom fundamentals of Beat Saber and allowed you to place no matter tune you needed in there. And I believe realistically, if it weren’t for these movies, after which subsequently that modding Discord to take care of its relevance.

After which the ultimate piece of that was that it turned the flagship for the Quest. I believe these have been the three large, like, moments that you can say that related to the success of Beat Saber. Each, six to 9 months, there was one thing that hit proper on the proper time. It was an enormous quantity of luck [00:18:00] concerned, to be trustworthy. That preliminary launch was completely timed; the sport got here out, with a bunch of fanfare and all these movies; after which it turned the biggest VR discord on the planet of a whole lot of hundreds of individuals.

They really needed to begin kicking folks out, as a result of it went over Discord’s restrict. Have been creating mods with like completely different swords and songs and no matter. And that bought across the copyright difficulty the place most builders needed to license each single tune, which will get extremely costly. So that they had this complete neighborhood basically making infinite content material.

After which the ultimate piece of that’s when it got here out on the Quest, it transformed so effectively to the Quest and, it didn’t have a few of the points that a few of the different VR video games had. Like Survios, for instance, couldn’t port a whole lot of their video games to the Quest due to the constancy that was essential to port it.

So there have been a whole lot of builders who created actually superb experiences who had a extremely onerous time porting it all the way down to the Quest. So there have been like three [00:19:00] large issues that actually pushed the success of Beat Saber to the purpose the place it hit fifty p.c gadget penetration of your entire VR market. It was on over fifty p.c of all headsets on the planet, which was…

Preston Lewis: Wow.

Cix Liv: That’s nuts. That’s nuts.

Ryan DeLuca: It, it’s humorous you say that, as a result of it’s so true. Like, the customized content material, the customized songs, like, that was one of the best half about it, proper? It’s like, there was so many various songs and maps, like countless quantity, proper? And you can discover any songs that you simply favored and all types of loopy stuff.

And naturally folks would price one of the best ones. You’d study new songs. There’s so many, a lot music that I had simply discovered about that I’d by no means even heard about, that now I’m a fan of via that. And to me, that’s what sort of ruined it when it went to Quest, as a result of it was an ideal expertise for Quest, as a result of wi-fi, , as a result of I used to be at all times planning on the Vive or the, or the Index. However going to wi-fi was simply so nice, , and so they even made the 360 modes and stuff.

However, , it type of leads into the following factor is, probably the greatest components about Beat Saber being the flagship sport, that turned like actually the primary mainstream sport that launched folks to VR, was the factor we at all times hear, proper? “Hey, I’ve tried this Beat Saber sport. It was tremendous enjoyable, [00:20:00] I beloved it. After which I spotted I’m exercising.” Like, it may have been another VR sport that wasn’t actually an energetic sport that turned the primary large one, however the truth that the primary large one had such an train cardio element to it, was additionally actually good for displaying health as a robust approach to make use of VR.

So, inform us about YUR that led you into your subsequent large factor, your subsequent firm.

Cix Liv: Yeah, so, I needed to go away Liv for varied causes. One of many causes was, is the group mainly turned European based mostly and, I had a tough time with the concept of like, transferring to the Czech Republic.

You recognize, I hadn’t began an organization pondering I must transfer to the Czech Republic. So I made some selections to make sure that, like, my departure can be okay for the corporate, and AJ turned the CEO, which was, , my roommate approach again then. However I used to be itching to, do one thing once more straight away.

In hindsight, I most likely ought to have taken just a little little bit of a break, going straight from, startup 200 miles an hour to a different 200 miles an hour, type of breaks you. However, I [00:21:00] strongly believed in VR health and previous to that I’ve been working just a little bit with the VR Well being Institute with Aaron, uh, Stanton? Yeah. So, I’ll give him credit score. He noticed VR Health as turning into an enormous factor, and I used to be looking for a strategy to work with him. And I’ll say this, we have been looking for a strategy to work collectively, however he strongly believed within the efficacy of every part to love an Nth diploma.

Like, we have to have it peer reviewed. We have to have coronary heart price trackers which might be validated by no matter. I used to be like, dude, “we simply gotta show to those who individuals are fucking exercising.” I used to be attempting to determine a strategy to work with him. He didn’t need to co-found it with me.

He’s most likely just a little mad at me now, no matter, like, shit occurs within the startup world. However I made a decision to not work with him as a result of, he didn’t need to be a co-founder with me and he was so targeted on efficacy of every part. And for me, having constructed a client firm earlier than, proving in any respect that individuals are doing one thing with the least friction doable is the way you construct a client firm, proper?

So my thesis [00:22:00] was, okay, we’re gonna transfer in the direction of a headset that’s not tethered. I believe health is gonna be one in every of, if not the largest use case. Individuals would chortle at my fucking face. Even Aaron had the identical expertise; like, folks thought we have been a joke, proper? He tells the story about how he was attempting to show to those who VR is health and other people would inform him, “no, you’re simply scared, that’s why your coronary heart price is excessive.” You recognize, like zombies are after you. That’s why your coronary heart price is excessive. It’s not since you’re exercising, it’s since you’re frightened of what’s occurring. I’m fucking exercising, man. He was attempting to show to those who it was a factor.

I didn’t should be proved, I believed in it, proper? However I used to be simply, I used to be looking for, , how will we create a client product out of this? I began pondering, okay effectively, let’s attempt to resolve this in a approach that’s the least friction doable.

I’m quick forwarding just a little bit right here.

So, one other individual that actually believed in VR health, there weren’t many by the way in which. I bear in mind a gathering that I had with Oculus throughout [00:23:00] OC-6, the place I inform them, I mentioned, “hey, VR Health is gonna be an enormous factor.” They nearly fucking laughed me out of the room. They have been like, “what are you speaking about?”

And I believe that is primarily as a consequence of the truth that the way in which Fb determines product worth is predicated off present metrics that they’ll go right into a PM assembly and say, “hey, that is occurring, we must always try this too.” They’ve a really tough time with foresight, and I believe culturally that’s the greatest downside with Fb, is that they solely function on present information and so they don’t have the foresight to see how one thing can evolve into one thing.

And so, I had that have the place they nearly like laughed me out of a room for pitching VR Health. Anyway, there was one different man who lived in San Francisco who believed in VR Health, and his title was Dylan.

I met up with Dylan and I used to be like, “dude, VR health is a factor.” I didn’t should persuade him it was a factor. And that was one of many greatest points that I had with co-founding this firm, is I might go to folks and so they’d be like, “VR health, [00:24:00] what are you speaking about?”

So Dylan, I didn’t should persuade him. And so we began, YUR from that. And we bought into Increase, which was an accelerator right here in San Mateo. Mainly it was simply because I believe Adam Draper favored me, and he, , like, if I’m gonna be actual, I believe that’s what occurred. He was like “Cix, I don’t know what the fuck you’re doing, man, however I’m a guess on you.” You recognize, a kind of issues, proper? like Dylan hadn’t even dedicated to being within the firm by then. So I got here again to Dylan and I mentioned, “hey, if you wish to do that, we’re in Increase now, we now have just a little bit of cash.”

So, we needed to create the least friction strategy to get entangled on this. So our very first product was a mod in Beat Saber. And we already had, going again to what powered Beat Saber, was this huge modding neighborhood and it type of skirted round a few of these completely different platform points that we’d have. Like, may we really combine into Beat Saber formally? Most likely not. Proper? Particularly not proper out of the gate. So, we created this mod for Beat Saber and it turned extremely profitable. We began [00:25:00] mainly what YUR was, was a subset, initially, of the Beat Saber modding Discord eager to train.

And in order that neighborhood that we constructed was, initially, the bottom group, a subset of that Beat Saber modding group. And it was so fascinating, as a result of this was a demographic that nobody else ever appealed to within the health area. It was players, a whole lot of them, tremendous unhealthy that have been exercising accidentally.

And it was nearly like Beat Saber made them really feel like, “I’ve an opportunity now to truly be match.” These have been the blokes that you simply’ve seen within the memes the place they’re like consuming chips on the sofa sort. That was our important demographic, proper? Was youngsters who felt apathetic to even the concept of exercising.

And what it was, was a extremely good Computer virus that made folks have the arrogance that they really may begin exercising, proper? And that was the subset of the preliminary[00:26:00] neighborhood in YUR, the subset of the beat Saber modding group that realized, “hey, I can really train.” That was our preliminary product. It went extremely effectively. So then we created a Steam based mostly tracker that mainly, would take your motion information and estimate very rudimentary, , initially into what energy you have been burning. After which it developed right into a Quest app that you simply needed to facet load. And we bought just a little bit extra fancy over time the place we have been utilizing machine studying to estimate your coronary heart price based mostly off information that we had on coronary heart price. However, the aim was mainly to create a Fitbit that didn’t require any {hardware}. And that was type of the underlying aim of YUR. And, yeah, it labored extremely effectively. I believe we turned the quantity two utility in Quest for a given time. Till it, uh, was de platformed.

Preston Lewis: So one query I need to ask [00:27:00] is, simply feels like you’re very related to customers via these tasks and merchandise you’re constructing. Which I believe is basically necessary for our viewers to listen to, as a result of lots of people constructing these experiences, , folks strategy it from a bunch of various angles. Whether or not it’s, “hey, we now have a intestine feeling, we’re simply gonna do it”, or, “we don’t essentially want the validation as a result of we simply be ok with it.”

Seems like, from what you’ve talked about, and from what we collect, you’re the alternative. You in fact have the intestine feeling, however feels like you could have actually stayed near your customers all through the journey, and listened to them all through the method. So possibly only a fast little temporary hit on that, for our viewers. What would you suggest as individuals are constructing the product so far as understanding which path to go, validating the issues they’re constructing and issues like that?

Cix Liv: It’s important to have a suggestions loop together with your customers, proper? One of many issues that I did that you can argue will not be a great factor for a CEO to be doing, and at scale that’s true, is [00:28:00] that each single unfavourable evaluate, I might attain out to that individual and ask them “why?” And I’d be like, okay, “so why are you leaving us a unfavourable evaluate?”

They usually’d be like, “effectively, the UI right here sucks”, or “it’s affecting the efficiency of what I’m doing” or “I don’t assume it’s correct.” Proper? And, I chase after the those who didn’t like our product to seek out out why they didn’t like our product, as an alternative of simply being like, “oh, man, I’m so unhappy folks don’t like what we’re doing.” Proper? I assume the distinction between me and a few individuals who work in tech, is I get punched within the face and I simply see it as that is what I’m doing. Proper? Whenever you begin an organization, for those who don’t need to be punched within the face, get a fucking day job, trustworthy to God. Go get a fucking day job. And if the worst factor that’s gonna occur to you is your supervisor is gonna be upset at you, that’s a great day. You guys know this, like, for those who wanna be a founder, you could have to have the ability to like get punched within the face each fucking day and do it once more. One of many lowest factors I’ve ever had, just a little little bit of a tangent right here, is I pitched [00:29:00] throughout Techstars, and that is again earlier than anyone actually cared a complete lot about VR. And I gave this large impassionate speech on why I consider digital actuality is gonna be the longer term.

And it was like, oh, I felt so good about myself. And the second I ended, an investor raised their hand. And he goes, “the second you mentioned VR I cease listening.” And I’m like, “man, fuck you, dude.” Like, what’s that? Such as you discredit a complete class. Like, I don’t care. Fuck off, man.

Ryan DeLuca: It’s type of loopy, we see the identical factor. Like VCs, a whole lot of instances buyers, they at all times discuss their future pondering visionaries, they wanna be part of like issues that folks haven’t seen but. However whenever you actually speak to ’em about one thing that isn’t already mainstream or large or that everyone else is already investing into, you’re proper, it simply doesn’t actually compute to them. And it’s the identical factor, such as you mentioned, with like large corporations. I might say it’s not simply Fb, it’s nearly all large corporations. Like, they need information that proves it, and that’s actually what creates that chance for entrepreneurs is to get laughed [00:30:00] within the face. And the fascinating factor about being laughed in your face is half the time you ought to be laughed at, and the opposite half, it’s the following large factor. And it’s at all times not possible on the time, with out wanting again on reflection to know, which path it truly is gonna go.

Cix Liv: I believe the toughest factor as an entrepreneur, for me, is with the ability to distill constructive criticism from assholes, proper?

As a result of typically the individuals who you assume are assholes, are literally supplying you with good suggestions. And typically the assholes are simply assholes, proper? And I believe that it’s actually onerous to tell apart the 2 typically, proper? Like, the place somebody is supplying you with suggestions, however you’re like, it’s similar to, it’s, it’s so private to you what you’re doing. You’re like, “okay, thanks, however fuck you”, ? You recognize?

Preston Lewis: That’s humorous.

Cix Liv: Like prompt…

Preston Lewis: That’s my child.

Cix Liv: Yeah, it’s like your child. It’s like somebody entering into and being like, “man, your child’s ugly.” And I’m like, “effectively, it’s my child?”

Preston Lewis: Yeah, yeah. “What’s flawed with you?” That’s humorous. Yeah.

Ryan DeLuca: Then years later you look again at footage, you’re like, “man, that child was type of [00:31:00] ugly.”

Preston Lewis: That individual was proper. That individual was proper.

Ryan DeLuca: I assume, I imply we’re joking, however like, it kinda is true. You look again on the enterprise you had, like, once we first got here out with Black Field, the onboarding expertise was simply not good in any respect. However, like, we simply beloved it a lot, after which once we first began getting suggestions, folks have been saying so many unfavourable issues. And naturally the primary response you wanna have is, like, “they’re flawed” and like all this stuff. However then, you sleep on it and you concentrate on, okay, we have to make these adjustments, and it’s a whole lot of onerous work to make adjustments, however then you definately return and also you make these adjustments.

Then you definitely look again at your child, on the time, and notice, like, yeah, that wasn’t good. And, and hopefully that’s at all times the case. Hopefully you look two years from now and at all times take a look at what you’re presently doing and say it was not practically nearly as good as it’s now. In any other case, you’ve been stagnant and hasn’t transfer ahead. Haven’t listened to that suggestions.

Cix Liv: I believe listening to your customers is totally foundational, as a result of for those who speak to your folks, they’re at all times gonna offer you a optimistic spin, or normally or typically you simply have a pal that shits on every part, proper? And so your folks are normally actually not a great proxy for whether or not or not what you’re doing is sweet. And household is even worse. You recognize, household’s both [00:32:00] at all times gonna be unfavourable or at all times gonna be optimistic, relying on in the event that they assume you’re earning profits or not. Proper? In order that they’re, they’re horrible for suggestions loops. After which your co-founder, you may consistently be overly optimistic, since you each consider in the identical issues.

In order that they’re normally additionally not a great proxy. How do you get out of the bubble that’s your mind, into market actuality? And the market actuality normally simply exists with the those who use your product. And getting them to truly talk and let you know is, I believe probably the most useful type of suggestions for those who’re constructing a client firm. Attending to the those who like your product or don’t like your product and “why.”

Preston Lewis: A bit comply with as much as that’s, do you could have any small suggestions so far as the way you go about intelligently amassing that suggestions? Or is it simply straight up scouring the Fb posts, organising a Discord? Or do you could have particular issues that you simply do, for instance, create surveys, do focus teams, or how does that course of go for you with amassing the suggestions?

Cix Liv: [00:33:00] When you talk with an individual, like, instantly, it’s type of just like the distinction between speaking to somebody via 4Chan and speaking to somebody via their face. Like face-to-face, proper?

for those who’re on 4Chan, you’re gonna shit on every part. It’s nearly like straight from mind stem to face, proper? Like “this fucking is horrible, that shit blah, blah, blah, blah.” After which once they speak to you, they’re gonna be like, “effectively, I believe it’s best to, , enhance this” or no matter. Proper? So, I believe it’s getting each of these views, proper? As a result of what you miss whenever you’re chatting with their customers are those that didn’t even care sufficient to speak to you, proper? Normally the customers that you simply’re speaking to are someplace between precise customers and professional customers, proper?

And also you’re normally getting not a whole lot of the suggestions of the those who simply turned immediately, proper? They don’t wanna fucking reply to you. They don’t give a shit, they don’t need to let you know what their expertise was. So that you’re gonna have a blind spot on that class [00:34:00] of potential customers, proper?

So for these, you’re gonna should, like, discover it anecdotally via like Fb posts or dangerous evaluations, and because of this I might at all times chase the dangerous evaluate folks. When you’re constructing that client product to know what’s churning folks from the start and, what enhancements can I make for these informal customers after which, the professional customers, ought to we cater to them or not, ?

So I, I believe that getting these three views and possibly bucketing folks in these three issues, is an effective strategy to iterate in your product.

Preston Lewis: Superior. Thanks a lot for that Cix. In order that’s all for this episode, we determined to separate this podcast into two episodes as a result of Cix had a lot good things to share with you all. So be a part of us for half two of this episode, the place we’ll dig deeper into Cix’s upcoming XR venture and we’ll hear extra of his superior insights. We’ll see, on the following episode.

Thanks for listening to the VR Health Insider podcast. Are you aware of anybody that must be on our present or have suggestions? Don’t neglect to e-mail [00:35:00] us at podcast VR health insider.com and comply with us at VR Health Insider on Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube. You too can be a part of our Discord channel. Till subsequent time, maintain creating and dreaming up the following large factor that may revolutionize the world of health.