VR Health Insider Podcast – Episode 5: Cix Liv

Welcome to a brand new episode of the VR Health Insider Podcast!

Be a part of us as we welcome again Cix Liv of LIV, YUR and REK for Half 2 of our interview with him. He’s a digital health pioneer utilizing XR applied sciences to enhance the world of sports activities and health.

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Transcript: 

Episode 5 – Cix Liv – Half 2

Preston Lewis: [00:00:00] Welcome to the VR Health Insiders podcast, for the creators who’re constructing the way forward for the VR and AR sports activities and health industries that may revolutionize the best way the world will play sports activities, work out and get match together with your hosts. Preston Lewis and Ryan DeLuca, the founders of Black Field VR, who’re constructing the world’s first full health VR fitness center and produce many years of expertise from creating among the largest health expertise corporations on this planet. They’re bringing collectively the very best and brightest minds that can assist you and your organization succeed within the VR health revolution.

All proper. Welcome to half two of our interview with Cix Liv, who’s a VR, AR XR guru and pioneer. In our earlier Half 1 Episode with Cix, he defined his background, which actually make clear how creators have to have a ardour for the tech and trade they need to break into, and likewise to construct rapidly and keep near the voice of the shopper to essentially perceive what they’re loving and hating.

Let’s decide up with our final query from the earlier podcast the place Cix shares insights as to one of the simplest ways to gather consumer suggestions for a [00:01:00] product.

Do you will have any small suggestions so far as the way you go about intelligently gathering that suggestions? Is it simply straight up scouring the Fb posts, organising a Discord? Or do you will have particular issues that you just do, for instance create surveys, do focus teams, or how does that course of go for you with gathering the suggestions?

Cix Liv: In the event you talk with an individual, like, straight, it’s sort of just like the distinction between speaking to somebody by 4Chan and speaking to somebody by their face. Like face-to-face. Proper?

in case you’re on 4Chan, you’re gonna shit on all the pieces. It’s virtually like straight from mind stem to face, proper? Like “this fucking is horrible, that shit blah, blah, blah, blah.” After which once they discuss to you, they’re gonna be like, “properly, I feel you must, you already know, enhance this” or no matter. Proper? So, I feel it’s getting each of these views. Proper? As a result of what you miss once you’re talking to their customers are those that didn’t even care sufficient to speak to you, proper? Normally [00:02:00] the customers that you just’re speaking to are someplace between precise customers and professional customers. Proper?

And also you’re often getting not lots of the suggestions of the those who simply turned immediately. Proper? They don’t wanna fucking reply to you. They don’t give a shit, they don’t need to let you know what their expertise was. So that you’re gonna have a blind spot on that class of potential customers. Proper?

So for these, you’re gonna must, like, discover it anecdotally by, like, Fb posts or unhealthy critiques, and for this reason I might all the time chase the unhealthy evaluate folks. In the event you’re constructing that shopper product to grasp what’s churning folks from the start and what enhancements can I make for these informal customers, after which the professional customers, ought to we cater to them or not? So I feel that getting these three views and perhaps bucketing folks in these three issues, is an effective option to iterate in your product.

Preston Lewis: That’s good recommendation.

Ryan DeLuca: And it seems like, I imply, the troublesome half, after all is simply having that open [00:03:00] mindset. Proper? It’s very easy to, such as you mentioned, low cost the unfavorable critiques, or when any individual’s telling you one thing you need to like clarify it. And somewhat than get extra details about why do they suppose that, and what would they like, how would we alter it? Generally you instantly wanna go into, like, defensive mode. However I agree with you, like, interacting with the neighborhood as a lot as you presumably can. Creating alternatives for these interactions, like, by, like, locations like Discord, on-line, or for us really within the fitness center. Taking customers out to breakfast or lunch, and actually digging into it. And doing it from a spot of studying, not a spot of simply making an attempt to make them say good issues, and taking that mindset again to the product.

Preston Lewis: A few of our greatest suggestions has come from our sort of squeakiest wheels, if you’ll. Those who, once they do method it, it’s like this, you already know, they’re perhaps rage quitting on an expertise or one thing like that. And it’s, to your level, it’s good to have these folks which can be a minimum of passionate sufficient to offer us the suggestions that we are able to take heed to after which iterate. As a result of it’s often, it’s often on the mark for bigger teams of our customers. So, yeah. Admire that recommendation, man. That’s superior.

Cix Liv: Yeah.

Ryan DeLuca: Nicely, let’s get into thrilling new issues [00:04:00] that you just’re doing. So, um, not with YUR, um, and now you’ve began a brand new AR sports activities firm known as REK and we’d like to study much more about that. So how’d that come about? What made you resolve to start out that and, uh, inform us a bit bit concerning the product.

Cix Liv: The newest firm I began is REK. So it’s sort of a mix of the 2 prior corporations within the learnings that I had there. So, LIV, the most important studying was how can we attain the folks exterior the headset? How can we make it fascinating for folks to observe? In the event you mix that with health, which you already know, is for my part the most important use case of headsets, the info means that retention for health associated apps is twice as excessive as anything in VR.

Yeah, really, that’s one small level to say at YUR that we seen. So we had an underlying tracker that labored on the headset it doesn’t matter what. Proper? And what we acknowledged is that when folks used their headset for health, they used it over twice as lengthy.

So the common utilization [00:05:00] size for a headset was about eighteen minutes. However once they used it for health it went as much as forty. That was an enormous studying for me, proper? So the large studying from LIV was we have to present what individuals are doing and we have to make it cool for different folks to observe.

The largest studying from YUR was headsets getting used for health have the very best retention. And, you already know, I consider essentially it’s the most important use case of HMDs. Um, so in case you mix these two learnings of health and spectating, you create, you already know what is actually sports activities. Proper?

I began this firm underneath this premise that, you already know, sports activities are going to be the following massive factor. And the explanation I consider that’s as a result of I did some ideation in augmented actuality and it sort of fell into the identical problems with VR, which is, like, why the fuck do I placed on a headset? Proper? And lots of AR apps have that very same problem the place they’re like, “okay, I placed on a headset so I can play puzzles with my buddy who’s additionally bodily there.” After which at that time, I’m identical to, “why don’t you simply fucking [00:06:00] put a puzzle there?” Proper? Like, why are we digitizing that have when it’s one thing that you are able to do in actual life?

Or like, “you need to do augmented actuality basketball? Why don’t you simply play basketball?” Proper? Like, the individual’s already there. A basketball is, you already know, like twenty bucks. Proper? It’s like expertise making an attempt to resolve an issue that doesn’t exist. Proper?

So, you already know, there was lots of people who have been doing VR sports activities and for me, I used to be like, “properly that’s not gonna work in AR, since you’re finally simply gonna churn out and do the true factor.” Proper? Because of this I’ve an issue with VR sports activities; I consider that the issue with VR sports activities is that the final word objective is once you change into adequate at it, you flip into the true factor.

What I turned fascinated with is, like, Tron. Let’s make a sport that doesn’t exist in actual life. You watch any sci-fi film that’s ever existed. Proper? [00:07:00] And once they present the way forward for sports activities it’s often comparatively related. Proper? Folks doing stuff and like dueling one another and killing one another digitally, doing stuff which you could’t do in regular sports activities. Like, you may’t kill your buddy in basketball.

Sci-fi motion pictures sort of demonstrated what the way forward for sports activities may appear like, and generally you don’t need to combat in opposition to the cultural zeitgeist of one thing and simply comply with by with it.

I began this firm with my co-founder Bart.

He was a senior AR engineer at Apple. And you already know, one of many issues he’s all the time been actually all for is, what are legitimate use circumstances of AR that may really exist proper now? And so he constructed a laser tag recreation that gained the primary place for an open pc imaginative and prescient contest final yr.

And mainly I reached out to him and I used to be like, “hey, you already know, like, we must always take into consideration what’s gonna be, like, the Beat Saber of AR? As we transfer to AR, what’s gonna be a correct use case of headsets?” So after we first got here collectively,[00:08:00] we have been testing issues like Area Pirate Coach Area.

So Area Pirate Coach Area, it’s thirty by thirty toes, and it’s like a laser tag recreation the place you run round and also you shoot at one another in VR. Proper? And so we have been testing video games like that, and to start with, it was such a fucking ache within the ass to discover a place that was thirty by thirty toes precisely. After which the best way that you just draw the Guardian with the Quest was a large nightmare. So it needed to even be even greater than that. And if it was exterior, we’d must hotspot it, and it could solely work throughout sure instances of the day and all this nightmare. However then one other large factor that we seen, is that once you really bodily run in VR, it’s so uncomfortable. Your mind begins freaking out.

It’s like, “the place the fuck are you? Like, are you gonna run into one thing? Is somebody gonna mug you?” It must be AR once you’re operating. When you introduce operating, there must be augmented actuality.

Ryan DeLuca: [00:09:00] Like, I agree. Like, I’ve by no means skilled really operating in VR. Um, yeah, however you’d must, like, have a ridiculous quantity of belief.

Cix Liv: Yeah. I imply, in case you’ve performed any boxing recreation in VR and punched something, proper? I keep in mind I punched a desk one time and my entire hand was bleeding, however I didn’t notice till I took off the headset and I used to be like, “holy shit.”

Preston Lewis: Oh, wow.

Ryan DeLuca: There’s much less ache notion, so I assume that may very well be good and unhealthy. There’s a complete subreddit of VR to ER. Proper? Uh, for a motive.

Cix Liv: Oh, is it actually known as VR to ER?

Ryan DeLuca: Oh yeah. Persons are displaying them destroying issues or hurting themselves.

Preston Lewis: It messes with the immersiveness. Proper? As properly. As a result of, yeah, such as you mentioned, like, when you try this one time, you then’re not fascinated by being within the expertise. You’re fascinated by hitting one thing. Identical factor occurred to me after I was, uh, I used to be enjoying one of many baseball video games and it miscalibrated my place and so I used to be, like, inches from a wall and went to swing for a pitch and simply slugged the wall as onerous as I presumably may. Yeah, I’m not enjoying that anymore.

Cix Liv: The second you introduce [00:10:00] operating, that concern turns into a lot extra realized.

Preston Lewis: Fascinating.

Cix Liv: Your physique actually begins freaking out. Trigger it’s, like, is that an actual wall or is {that a} digital wall? The best way these video games sync, they interlace the avatar on prime of the individual. Proper? But when that’s off by any vital diploma, you’re simply gonna run head first into you’re a buddy. And simply slam into them. Proper? I essentially consider that after you develop out of the restricted footprint of VR, it must be AR, in case you’re like operating and doing stuff like that.

However there’s huge, huge challenges with AR. One of the crucial apparent ones, in case you begin constructing for this, is that, like, any of those move by headsets, they don’t really phase the gamers correctly. So what finally ends up occurring is that all the pieces renders in entrance of the individual. So say that you just’re, like, competing in opposition to another person. Proper? And that individual is there and also you wanna put a objective behind them. Oh, it sounds easy. Proper? However you [00:11:00] can’t, as a result of the objective must render in entrance of them. It could possibly’t reduce the individual out and render the item behind them.

So it’s a must to do immensely difficult technical stuff to resolve one thing that wouldn’t exist in VR. Proper? Since you don’t have that very same drawback in VR the place it’s a must to, like, phase the individual out. So it’s a must to introduce an invisible avatar that renders on that very same individual, the place the individual is, after which it’s a must to ensure that the individual is synced correctly.

After which, you’re creating that cutout in entrance of the objective that’s behind them. In any other case, you’ll see the small objective, however it’ll render in entrance of the individual, even when they’re, like…

Preston Lewis: That’s fascinating. So it’s like real-time rotoscoping slash masking. That’s fascinating.

Cix Liv: Because of this, you already know, after we introduced REK, or no matter, we did a very easy factor. We did spell duals. Proper? And the explanation we did spell duals have been, okay, you’re punching. This can be a mechanic that anyone can perceive. [00:12:00] And one of many largest issues for me that I decide as successful standards, is the simplicity of preliminary adoption. So once you placed on a headset, the period of time that it takes somebody to grasp the right way to play a recreation is extremely essential. Trigger I’ve demoed VR for hours and hours and hours, and the longer that point takes, the upper likelihood that they’re gonna churn out. Proper? In order that must be, like, as slim as potential.

So we began, okay, you’re punching on the individual, no buttons. Quite simple. Proper? After which the explanation it’s a spell duel, is since you don’t must render any objects behind them. So it wasn’t identical to, hey, we wakened and we have been like, “Hey, let’s do a spell twin like Harry Potter or some shit.” It was based mostly off the restrictions of the Quest headset. Proper?

Like, we are able to’t have targets behind them. We will’t do all this different fancy stuff with no huge quantity of engineering effort. So the bottom bar for us have been simply, “properly, let’s punch Fireballs at one another.” And in order that’s sort of the explanation why that preliminary demo was [00:13:00] the best way it was.

Preston Lewis: Small little be aware there for our customers, sort of placing a pin in the truth that we talked about you getting scrappy with consumer suggestions and letting that sort of information product choices. That was a very good instance you simply gave of enjoying within the sandbox of what the expertise can really do and attain and discovering enjoyable, as quick as potential within the expertise. So, that’s good.

Ryan DeLuca: A giant a part of REK, and why folks appear to love us a lot additionally, is with the ability to spectate. Proper? To allow them to really watch it from the skin. What you actually put a deal with with REK, was making it in order that different folks can watch it in actual time and cheer them on in actual time such as you would a sport. And the way did you get that to work and what have you ever discovered from that kinda capability?

Cix Liv: We realized from fairly early on that having any kind of great obstacles, wouldn’t solely be complicated for the gamers, however create visible conflicts for spectators. Proper? While you’re watching a soccer recreation otherwise you’re watching a soccer recreation or [00:14:00] one thing, they don’t have like partitions. Proper? Hypothetically if a digital camera existed in soccer they usually had all these partitions in every single place, you wouldn’t be capable to see what the gamers are doing. It’s design challenges like that which can be essential, however they’re additionally limiting. Proper? Now you may’t do lots of the shit that you just’ve executed in VR with all these cool environments. Mainly the atmosphere virtually disappears at that time. Proper? You’ll be able to’t have a fancy atmosphere in case you’re making an attempt to spectate. So, I feel that that’s additionally gonna be one thing to consider that we’re gonna have to determine. We might must render one thing completely different for the gamers contained in the headset than what folks exterior see. So, like, within the headset you’ll see opaque pillars, however within the spectator view they’re clear. Proper?

Like, all these design choices that you just’re gonna must make, that you just wouldn’t must even take into consideration in VR, in case you’re designing deliberately for spectating. The final word product that [00:15:00] we’re gonna launch just isn’t gonna be a spell duel recreation in the identical capability. Um, however yeah, we have been simply, you already know, what’s the most simple factor that we are able to do? And what’s the mechanic that anyone on this planet can perceive? And yeah, that’s sort of the place that got here.

We’ve been engaged on fairly just a few completely different recreation ideas and within the subsequent few months we’ll announce that, uh, and it’s not gonna be fairly the identical because the spell duel for the ultimate product, so.

Ryan DeLuca: Nicely, now I’m excited to listen to extra about that.

I don’t know if there’s anything you wished to say about creating REK and like the choices that have been made round that.

Cix Liv: So we initially got here on this thought, like, “hey, we’re gonna do LBE and stuff”. Proper? After which we really went by the method of making an attempt to get into the LBE recreation and, uh, whew, man, I don’t…

Ryan DeLuca: Location based mostly leisure, so precise retail footprint. Proper?

Cix Liv: Yeah, yeah. So we checked out Sandbox and we have been like, okay, Sandbox has all these places, [00:16:00] however they’re capital costly, you already know? So then we have been like, “okay, so we’ll ship folks {hardware} and have them set it up at their venue.” And we have been like, “okay, however then we’re gonna have like a 15 yr previous contemporary outta highschool making an attempt to handle this shit. In order that’s gonna be a nightmare and a half making an attempt to, like, handle that remotely.” Um, so we have been simply, you already know, we tried to work some channel companions on it and we simply realized the LBE technique is one thing that we simply couldn’t afford, truthfully. , we couldn’t afford to even attempt it.

So we’re going again to approaching it as creating shopper product. That’s additionally like the place my specialty comes from, like constructing in VR, is on the patron aspect. So we’re gonna have a VR mode that connects to an AR mode, and our largest focus is gonna be constructing the bridge between these two worlds. How do you really get folks to carry a headset exterior? And I feel that’s an unsolved drawback. And the best way I like to clarify it, in probably the most succinct manner potential, is REK is [00:17:00] making an attempt to do to headsets what Niantic, you already know, Pokemon Go did to telephones. Which is get folks to, like, consider their gadgets as virtually like a health extension of themselves. Or, like, utilizing that to stroll round.

I do suppose that sooner or later we might return into LBEs, however it’s seemingly gonna be extra like UFC tournaments, excessive manufacturing worth, you already know, advertisers, no matter. As a result of, yeah, it’s actually costly and we don’t have the, you already know, we didn’t have the cash to do this. Proper?

Preston Lewis: We’ve seen that as you’re constructing these experiences, one of many stuff you’ve executed, you and the group have executed rather well is making them look cool. Not solely within the expertise, however within the advertising. We sort of talked about the viral movies and issues that you just did early on. It sounds kinda like a easy factor. Proper? To make issues look cool. As a result of that is future tech, this new tech, and it looks as if it’d be straightforward to make it cool. However, with Black Field VR, we’ve needed to combat the notion within the early days, a minimum of that VR Health was just for [00:18:00] tremendous techy folks.

However you guys have executed simply an superior job making it approachable and funky. Even trying on the REK movies, these are additionally getting a bunch of consideration and simply kudos to you and the group on making the tech look cool.

Ryan DeLuca: It’s a such a very good level. So many instances some new VR health factor comes out or exercise recreation, and it’s identical to the worst graphics, the worst advertising. And clearly that’s not an important factor, you already know, in lots of experiences. Like, we all the time discuss Minecraft, for instance, you already know, beginning out extra pixelated sort of stuff.

It’s all the time, like, man, folks wanna look cool. Like, you already know, such as you mentioned, it’s like no one needs to trip a Segway, however we are going to trip a cool fowl scooter down the highway. Proper? , it’s like the identical factor, only a completely different configuration. So, such a very good level that Preston made is, like, all of your stuff seems fashionable and funky, that individuals wanna be part of it.

Preston Lewis: It’s superior. Earlier than we jumped on right here, I used to be taking a look at a few of your stuff and also you sort of poked enjoyable on the, uh, what was it? Horizon Worlds or one thing like that. And you’ve got, like, you will have the sort of the dorky sort of graphics and stuff, after which you will have you’re a hero shot. I assumed that was actually good. I imply, that’s one other factor that’s actually essential, once more, in driving [00:19:00] adoption is that device of contrasting. Proper?

And displaying folks, like, it doesn’t must be this, it may be this. Something that we’ve seen you do, it’s, you’ve executed a very good job with that.

Cix Liv: You’re speaking concerning the tweet the place it was like their Metaverse our Metaverse, after which it was just like the… yeah.

Preston Lewis: Yeah. That was superior.

Cix Liv: I imply, to be sincere, Meta is making it fairly straightforward, okay. I’ve to be considerably on their good graces, so I’m sorry prematurely. However, uh, you actually gotta work in your advertising. The Horizons World stuff, I consider, is so unhealthy that it’s taking down our entire trade.

I consider Horizon Worlds is so poorly marketed, and such a nasty product, that’s taking down all the VR house. As a result of once you go into the cultural zeitgeist of speaking to folks about Metaverse. Proper? The very very first thing they’re gonna consider is the shitty trying Zuck avatar and, you already know, Horizon Worlds And that’s by intention, that Meta is, like, that is the Metaverse, proper? And it’s discrediting [00:20:00] what so many cool issues that we’ve constructed on this house appear like. And it’s actually disappointing, as a result of I feel it’s such a nasty allocation of sources, and it’s such a nasty search for headsets that it’s really hurting all of us.

Ryan DeLuca: Among the commercials they make are wonderful. , once they present, like, what it’s prefer to be in VR and put the headset on. Now you’re on this large factor and simply thoughts blowing. And also you’re proper, and clearly it’s nonetheless early days, so we’re all hopeful. Proper?

As a result of I agree with you, like, with the quantity of funding that they’re placing into it, they’ll make or break it, you already know? And in the event that they do an awesome job, the {hardware} will get to the place it must be. It’s gonna be very useful for all of us. However you’re proper, it may carry us down if it’s not the product that the mainstream needs.

Cix Liv: I might look into the PICO if I have been you guys, I don’t know in case you used the PICO 4 in any respect, however, like, this factor is all the pieces the Quest 2 must be. It’s thinner, it’s smaller, it’s extra light-weight, it’s designed extra for health. It’s all the pieces the Quest 2.5 ought to have been. And as an alternative, they got here out with a Quest Professional, which is $1,500 that has face [00:21:00] monitoring and eye monitoring, however it’s even heavier than the Quest 2. And the burden was already a giant drawback. I simply I don’t get it.

Preston Lewis: You talked concerning the AR, VR experiences that you just’ve constructed or are constructing. What are your favourite AR, VR sports activities and health experiences in the present day? And what makes ’em good?

Cix Liv: I actually like this recreation known as Blaston. I used to be enjoying it quite a bit within the pandemic. So it’s a twin recreation, it’s one v. one, and also you’re capturing these varied velocity projectiles at one another and there’s no type of locomotion. You’re each on these small pillars, after which what it finally ends up changing into, is like, you’re having to do lots of dodging… it’s actually lively. I feel I hit like a thousand energy an hour enjoying that at full depth. I actually favored that.

One of the best sports activities kind recreation in VR proper now might be Nock. So in case you’ve tried Nock, Nock makes use of arm locomotion the place you maintain a set off and also you sort of fly within the air after which it makes use of [00:22:00] bows. So that you’re capturing arrows at a ball.

I feel my largest recommendation for individuals who construct VR and AR content material, is on the absolute basic of what that is, it has to really feel good. If it doesn’t really feel good, nothing else fucking issues. You can also make the very best graphics on this planet, you can also make an awesome storyline, you can also make regardless of the fuck particle results which can be wonderful. If the bottom mechanics don’t really feel good, none of that shit issues.

And you already know what completely, completely represents that is Gorilla Tag. In the event you take a look at a screenshot of Gorilla Tag, you’d be like, “what the fuck are you doing?” They’ve handed Beat Saber for probably the most critiques on the Quest now. They’re now the primary fucking utility, they usually’re not even within the retailer. And the explanation for that goes again to the purpose that I made right here, at its baseline, there’s a locomotion technique. And the locomotion technique is mainly you operating in your arms. Proper? [00:23:00] No buttons, no complexity in any way. And it’s train. It’s like tag, it’s mainly like tag for teenagers. And the youngsters are in there and it positively will get offensive quite a bit, so perhaps that’s why they’re not in the primary retailer. Nevertheless it’s mainly youngsters operating on their arms, yelling at one another. And that turned the primary. I’m not even kidding. They’re simply screaming at one another they usually’re simply operating like this.

Preston Lewis: That’s superior.

Cix Liv: Feels good. Feels good. It doesn’t really feel good nothing fucking issues. And your app goes to flop.

Ryan DeLuca: Anytime I’m making an attempt to reload a gun in one in every of these difficult sort of first individual shooters, I assume my definition of VR, they’re all first individual, you already know?

Nevertheless it’s like, I’m hitting my controllers collectively, or I’m making an attempt to do that factor and the man’s coming at me, and I can’t fairly get the little elements of reload. It’s like, it kills it for me, as a result of it’s like, I’m positive I may get good at, I’m positive if I performed at one other ten hours, I’d in all probability like, you already know, haven’t any drawback.

However at first it’s simply, you’re simply, it’s very awkward.

Cix Liv: Denny from Cloud Head, proper? He’s a VR OG and he’s made a bunch of [00:24:00] experiences. His unique video games have been sort of like Myst, like, Name of the Starseed, the place you want, would mainly clear up puzzles in VR with actually excessive constancy. And he constructed Pistol Whip, you guys know Pistol Whip, proper? And Pistol Whip is mainly identical to Time Disaster on rails by way of, like, the psychological math and what that you must do. , you’re going from extraordinarily complicated, and dynamic and wonderful graphics into, like, mainly Cel Shaded Time Disaster.

It was his most profitable title. And, like, I feel lots of recreation builders are mad about that. And so they go, ” why can’t we’ve got wonderful graphics? Why can’t we’ve got dynamic storylines? Why can’t we’ve got all this different shit?” And it’s like, properly, if it doesn’t really feel good, individuals are simply gonna use their console. They’re simply gonna go play their Ps. Proper?

Preston Lewis: You sort of alluded to designing in recreation mechanics and interplay patterns which have decrease cognitive load, proper? In order that the sport continues to be enjoyable and other people keep immersed. So what do you’re feeling like [00:25:00] is lacking from the AR, VR sports activities and health trade in the present day?

Cix Liv: Nicely, if I instructed you that I’d be making a gift of my secrets and techniques.

Preston Lewis: There we go.

Cix Liv: So I’ve divulged all the pieces.

Preston Lewis: Superb, inform us your first title, then. Superb. Simply inform us your first title.

Ryan DeLuca: Yeah, what’s your actual title?

Preston Lewis: Yeah, what’s your beginning title?

Cix Liv: I feel which you could sort of, like, paint the image of what I feel goes to be the long run based mostly off what I’ve mentioned prior to now. Which is, you already know, low cognitive load, straightforward to grasp, motive to placed on the headset is lively, you already know, fascinating for folks to observe. After which the most important concern in our house, by far, is working across the limitations of the {hardware}. Proper? As a result of like, oh my God, I can let you know what number of instances I ideated on some shit, and I turned out as, like, can’t do it. It’s, like, ninety p.c of the shit you construct in our trade, falls into “sounds good, doesn’t work.”

Trustworthy to God, it’s like virtually each fucking concept that I’ve, it’s [00:26:00] like, “oh, you already know, I can’t try this due to Fb platform management. I can’t try this as a result of we don’t have decrease physique monitoring. I can’t try this as a result of the hand monitoring wasn’t educated to work exterior, so it solely works in low mild environments. I can’t try this as a result of, you already know, the second you place a weight in your hand, it will possibly’t detect your hand anymore. So you may’t quantify the health.” Proper?

One other massive concern with creating for AR, is that you just don’t have entry to the digital camera knowledge, it simply mainly is available in as a shader. That’s it. And in order that limits a complete bunch of stuff that you are able to do. After which there’s no dying digital camera in it, so you may’t simply phase gamers out. , there’s some like laser tag ideas that individuals have made with the Quest. And so they create this video and it makes it look so good.

It’s, like, “okay, there’s folks of their workplace they usually’re hiding behind packing containers they usually’re capturing at one another, that’s gonna be so fucking wonderful.” Proper? And you then go about to do it your self and develop it, like something like that, and also you’re, like, “holy shit, this [00:27:00] is inconceivable”. Like, to start with, you may’t flip off the guardian for the Quest except you’re in dev mode. Okay? How many individuals are in dev mode. Proper? Like, folks on SideQuest, nobody else. So, you may’t make an AR expertise that has the guardian off. And also you’re gonna what, draw a thirty foot guardian each single time in your workplace? Proper? In order that’s an enormous concern. After which I discussed the problem of, like, rendering folks on prime of it, after which the truth that there’s no shared SLAM maps?

So, like, if I’ve a SLAM map in my headset, I can’t share it to any headset round me within the Quest ecosystem. You’ll be able to within the Vive, so the Vive has shared SLAM maps. So, I’ve to go map all the scene with my headset, after which I can’t share that SLAM map with anyone else. So all these ideas that individuals present are very conceptual, as a result of you may’t really do lots of this shit.

The factor that’s aged me probably the most on this [00:28:00] house is the “sounds good, doesn’t work” shit, which seems to be like ninety p.c of something that you just consider.

Ryan DeLuca: It’s fascinating, as a result of often what we hear is “it’s irritating as a result of most individuals don’t have a headset”, you already know? In order that’s already the limitation that we’re coping with. Is that, it’s not that everyone’s acquired a headset, however we are able to’t do these issues. That simply provides onto it, and it simply creates much less causes for folks to get the headset.

And we run into the identical issues. It’s, you already know, we’re caught in, uh, you already know, SteamVR ecosystem. And, you already know, we’re utilizing the Vive Professionals at, uh, Black Field. As a result of we’ve got to have some kind of option to do exterior monitoring of arms and arms, with out coping with occlusion from regular hand monitoring for various actions, like squats and deadlifts and overhead press.

And so we’d love to have the ability to use a wi-fi headset. We’re nonetheless caught with the wired headset, as a result of we want to have the ability to have mainly the Vive monitoring pucks, or we use the Tundra Trackers. And, you already know, there’s different issues like Kinect-style cameras that we doubtlessly may use. We’ve examined a bunch of these issues, however they’re not quick sufficient, you already know, as a result of we’re doing lots of punching and slicing and actions, or they cope with occlusion as [00:29:00] properly.

So, you already know, it appears like all the pieces’s actually shut. Like, man, good hand monitoring and, you already know, if we may simply get that in order that the sphere of view is a bit bit higher. Full physique monitoring, even when they’re simply sort of like guess a bit bit round, it may very well be actually fascinating. However, such as you mentioned, these shared experiences are just about inconceivable with the restrictions of this closed down {hardware}, and we’re gonna have all that stuff quickly, you already know? And when are we gonna have all that stuff we would like? It may very well be tomorrow, it may very well be an announcement from any individual tomorrow. It may very well be three years from now and we simply don’t know.

You’ve talked about Beat Saber, like that modding neighborhood. I completely agree, like, with out LIV, with out that modding neighborhood, and all the opposite songs and all the opposite stuff, it wouldn’t be the place it’s in the present day. It’s clearly nonetheless an superior recreation, however it may need been extra of an Audioshield and get some traction, however not lots of traction prefer it did. And so they’ve taken lots of that stuff away, particularly talking concerning the Quest platform, which is the most important platform in the present day, after all.

Preston Lewis: The subsequent query was gonna be describe your excellent AR, VR sports activities and health expertise. Nevertheless it seems like it’s staying inside the sandbox of the {hardware} that’s presently [00:30:00] out there. Making an attempt to future solid a bit bit, however not going loopy, as a result of as you talked about, in case you construct too far forward all you’re gonna have is a bunch of tears and no shipped merchandise.

You talked concerning the spectator side of it, which we from day one we thought was tremendous essential in Black Field VR. We all the time say that the great factor about sports activities, constructing a sports activities title, is which you could construct it and it’s infinitely replayable. Versus having to really construct a title that’s sort of this linear storyline that has x quantity of hours and you then gotta construct it once more. So, that’s large. We completely agree.

And never just for the enjoyable of the consumer, however we actually do consider that AR, VR spectating modes may very well be wonderful. Proper? We’ve all seen the World of Warcraft slash League of Legends, gigantic spectacles of eSports and stuff like that, so seems like the identical web page there.

After all provides you a exercise, after all is immersive, makes use of patterns that aren’t an excessive amount of cognitive load. And mainly, simply, we have to someway crack the whip on the {hardware} producers and get them to construct stuff quicker for us, as a result of[00:31:00] that’s what we run into.

Cix Liv: I might attain out to PICO although. The PICO 4, you already know, the 2 important focuses they’ve are health and video games, they usually appear to be taking health very critically. There’s additionally a very fascinating motive for that, by the best way.

In China, they’ve caps on what number of video, how a lot you may play a online game per day. And in case you can persuade the federal government that it’s a health gadget, you get away of that limitation. In order that’s really one of many small causes they’re hyper-focused on health, is that if they’ll persuade the federal government that it’s a health gadget and never a recreation gadget, they’ll really get away of that limitation.

That’s a small factor I found by happening the trail of localizing to China.

Ryan DeLuca: Nicely, man, we’ve realized a lot from you. I feel we acquired like one million notes right here. This’ll positively be our longest podcast ever, to this point. So, uh, actually respect it. I feel to wrap issues up, what’s subsequent for you? What’s subsequent for REK? We’ve, you’ve heard quite a bit about, uh, these upcoming variations of the sport and what it’s not gonna [00:32:00] be, and a bit little bit of what it’s gonna be, however the place, what’s subsequent for you and, and what are you guys, uh, as much as subsequent?

Cix Liv: I assume you’d must comply with my Twitter.

Preston Lewis: There we go. Name to motion.

Cix Liv: C I X L I V. Um, I’m prepared to reveal all the pieces concerning the previous of how I acquired thus far, however among the stuff that we’re engaged on sooner or later, I’d prefer to preserve underneath wraps till we announce it. We’re positively going to be constructing one thing that works in AR and VR, and we’re positively going to construct a companion utility that lets you spectate that. After which, hopefully sooner or later, transfer this into tournaments with brackets and leagues and, you already know, all of the stuff that sports activities have.

I feel one of many massive issues I wanna depart folks with, that’s one thing that, is perhaps a lightweight bulb second. Is after we have been doing our assessments, we did a pilot, down in, um, Los Angeles. There have been just a few various things that occurred that made me suppose we’re occurring the correct path.

Um, there was a [00:33:00] boyfriend and girlfriend who have been, you already know, the boyfriend was going to go play in opposition to his buddy. And earlier than he performed, and he was placing on a headset, his girlfriend came to visit to him, gave him a kiss, and mentioned, “you higher win”. After which we had a second the place a dad was watching his son, and he was enjoying in opposition to his son’s buddy, and he was standing there subsequent to the TV like, you already know, cheering on his son, like, very, very clearly, cheering on his son. And he may see his son and he may see how he was enjoying his buddy and all this different stuff. And so these moments have been actually essential.

However the factor that actually mild bulb this to me, is that if this was a online game that by no means would’ve occurred, as a result of what would’ve occurred is, to start with, that girlfriend can be like, “what the fuck are you doing?” Like, “we’re at a venue”, like, “why are you going and sitting and enjoying League of Legends?”

Like, you already know, “we’re right here to have enjoyable, what the fuck are you doing?” Proper? As a result of she couldn’t take part in what was occurring, as a result of she’d haven’t any [00:34:00] thought or the context of what the fuck is going on. Proper? And so that may’ve occurred. After which the identical factor would’ve occurred with the dad and his child. The place if his child came to visit and sat down and performed a online game, despite the fact that it was, you already know, quote on quote eSports, he’d be like, “what the fuck are you doing? We’re out right here to have enjoyable.” Once more, as a result of he couldn’t take part or perceive what was occurring. And so my massive obsession with this house is that I consider if we nail this, that is greater than all the XR house, as a result of it breaks out of the house like that Beat Saber video did 5 years in the past.

And that’s why I do that. I consider that if that is nailed, XR sports activities change into greater than all the house, as a result of it will possibly get adoption from individuals who aren’t in headsets. And that’s why I’m like, mild bulb second. That is it. ? Now, whether or not or not the {hardware} is gonna get there in time and, you already know, [00:35:00] all this different fucking bullshit we cope with in our house is one other query. However, you already know, that’s the hope. That’s the dream.

Preston Lewis: Yeah, so, all proper, that’s on a regular basis we’ve got. Thanks a lot, Cix for being right here with us. I’m positive our viewers actually appreciates it. And for anybody within the viewers, as all the time, we are going to put something within the present notes to get into contact with Cix and to get entangled in what he’s doing. Actually respect it. Thanks once more.

Thanks for listening to the VR Health Insider podcast. Have you learnt of anybody that must be on our present or have suggestions? Don’t overlook to electronic mail us at podcast vr health insider.com and comply with us at VR Health Insider on Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube. It’s also possible to be a part of our Discord channel. Till subsequent time, preserve creating and dreaming up the following massive factor that may revolutionize the world of health.